#mike’s lack of attraction to el

[aemiron-main]

“milkvan is supposed to be romantic/mike had a crush on El/the duffers and directors set it up to look romantic we’re supposed to take it seriously romantically”

oh. ok. we’re supposed to take the couple that went “will you be like you brother?” and “no-well yeah I guess-“ before they kissed in a room with a giant rainbow on a bulletin board in it seriously? while she was wearing his sister’s dress no less? a sister who she is constantly fucking paralleled to?

milkvan has something that byler doesn’t have that automatically disqualifies it from being taken as seriously romantically as byler: familial parallels. byler, two best friend boys who would usually be referred to as brothers are never even referred to as anything CLOSE to brothers even ONCE in the show. And yet Mike and El have an absolutely fucking Insane number of brother-sister and father-daughter and “paralleled to eachother’s parents in general” parallels. milkvan is not intended by the duffers nor the directors nor anyone else on the ST production team to be taken seriously and especially not as seriously as byler. if it was, they wouldn’t have included the insane number of familial parallels.

I’m not saying that milkvan is incest: I’m saying that there’s no fucking point to those parallels outside of being used to indicate a platonic, non romantic bond from the start.

Freud would have a fucking field day with some of you guys fr. It’s one thing to not be Aware of the milkvan familial parallels- it’s another to be aware of them and still try and claim that the duffers were trying to set up a genuine, meant-to-be-taken-seriously romance/crush between Mike and El.

Some elements of Mike and El’s relationship ARE framed and presented as being romantic on the surface- because they’re kids figuring themselves out AND because how the fuck are the duffers supposed to pull a straightbait if they don’t set the “straight” part of it up first?? It’s literally a show that talks about people who only look at the curtain vs people who look behind it. but the show has to set up that curtain- and the curtain in this case is setting up Mike and El to seem like a romantic couple but putting enough subtext (and blatant text frankly) such as mike’s lack of attraction to girls, the fact that the “pretty” parallels (right down to the soundtrack) indicate that the “pretty” scene was 100% not intended to be romantic, the familial parallels, etc etc etc to indicate that Mike and El aren’t actually romantic/attracted to eachother, esp mike towards El. That’s the “behind” the curtain part.

Like please be fr. We’re supposed to take the “‘she’s my cousin’, ‘will you be like my brother’, wearing my sister’s clothes and makeup, El paralleled to Karen and mike paralleled to Ted, mike paralleled to hopper and brenner, El paralleled to Nancy, milkvan parallled to stancy, ‘we should send her to an asylum,’ lying monologue, can’t say ‘I love you’ to her conscious face without Will in the room even once, etc” ship seriously????

That’s part of why I’m so big on gay Mike too: because if Mike was genuinely ever into El/in love with her, they would be telling a story of falling out of love, mike and El would have some beautiful but heart wrenching rain fight parallel scene. But they don’t. Their rain fight parallel scene is a scene played for gags at the mall (where they’re talking about family/mike’s grandma yet AGAIN and El is paralleled to her bc mike says he was buying a gift for nana but was actually looking for one for El and also Mike has dialogue that parallels Hopper) where “cold as ice” by foreigner plays (a song about shallow, surface-level relationships and commercialism and that was literally said by foreigner to be their most pop-like, surface level, commercialized song) and where El laughs and giggles with Max and isn’t sad at ALL about dumping mike.

Like honestly some of you guys have some serious audacity comparing Will’s pain and heartbreak in scenes like the post rain fight and during rain fight scenes to El’s pain/scenes like the mall. Does El suffer in her relationship with Mike? Absolutely. But even El herself says that Mike is her first boyfriend and what she’s consistently MORE upset about is the lying. Because mike’s always said that “friends don’t lie” so mike lying to her = not friends & she doesn’t want to lose him as a friend. I just really think it’s actually absurd to compare (compare in a way that claims they’re equal) Will’s scenes and heartbreak especially in s3 to El’s scenes regarding Mike. Will was fucking sobbing in the dark and the rain and traumatized and using a baseball bat (representative of his homophobic father) to destroy his safe place after a fight with Mike, whereas after El’s paralleled fight with Mike, she was giggling with max and eating icecream in bright sunlight. will talked about how he thought they were going to stay in mike’s basement/be together forever and then calling himself stupid for it. El was talking about how Mike is just her “first boyfriend.”

[aemiron-main]

FACTS FACTS FACTS I COMPLETELY AGREE!!! YOUVE SUMMED IT UP PERFECTLY!! Those things do not correlate!!!! It does not mean he likes girls!! And ST itself is beating us over the head with this too with how all of the “crush” scenes end up having platonic/familial ties (ie how mike calling el ‘pretty’ doesn’t have automatically romantic connotations because ‘pretty,’ was also used from El towards Nancy & then Mike agreed that Nancy is pretty so thinking/saying someone is pretty = attraction then mike is apparently attracted to his sister), like. Controversial Take TM but it’s literally basically canon atp that Mike never had romantic feelings for El. Gay men can have ‘crushes’ on girls, ESPECIALLY because like you said, people like Mike end up getting pressured into it by friends and family AND he’s been mocked for his appearance/has low self esteem AND Ted has made comments about him not having a girlfriend AND he feels obligated to El when it comes to things like using the snow ball as a promise to try and save her life/get her to fight to stay alive. Like. Some people FR act like they’ve never met or interacted with irl gay people before and act like gay men can’t ever be with women and that they ‘must be bi’ if they’ve ever been with one/that being with a woman makes someone bi and act like internalized homophobia and external homophobia and heteronormativity don’t exist. Like. Some people on here would shit themselves if they knew how many gay men got married to women and had kids with them. And it really does get disheartening to constantly basically be told that you ‘must be bi/attracted to girls’ if you ever dated a girl or kissed one etc because that’s simply not true & frankly is really invalidating for a lot of people and ties back into causal homophobia and stereotypes about gay men and gold star gay rhetoric, even unintentionally. Mike is gay. He has always been gay. He will continue to be gay. This is not the story of mike falling out of love with El- this is the story of Mike realizing that he was never attracted to her/in love with her. Like I’ve said before, I have yet to see a convincing analysis of any sexuality other than gay for Mike that doesn’t rely on outright ignoring the existence of canon scenes, especially the familial parallel scenes & Mike’s lack of attraction to girls scenes. And it’s because those scenes are being used to indicate that he’s gay, hence why they become roadblocks in any non-gay mike analyses because there ISNT any way to explain them other than Mike being gay and that’s why people writing non-gay mike analyses end up having to ignore them entirely.

just here to say again that gay people can and very often do experience “crushes” on people of different genders, particularly when they’re young and don’t understand the difference between romantic and platonic love, and that doesn’t make them any less gay

stranger things has done a fucking phenomenal job of displaying this through mike wheeler, whose entire romantic arc has been about discovering what that difference is, specifically through his two major relationships, will and el. he mistakes the platonic feelings for romantic ones and the romantic feelings for platonic ones before (VERY gradually imo) realizing that he’s had them mixed up the entire time

[wontbyers]

i mean, on one hand i agree with people saying there’s no need for discourse on gay mike vs bi mike because byler is going to be endgame either way so we don’t technically need an answer to that question, but on the other hand--what, we’re not allowed to care about mike wheeler as an individual, part of which is his sexuality and his arc of accepting himself for that identity?

while we share some experiences, there is a difference in the experience of being a gay person or a bisexual person, and there’s nothing wrong with people hoping that the story will delve into/address mike’s identity, both as it relates to his relationships with el and will (two of the main/most-focused-on relationships in the show!) and regardless of them, because mike does have an orientation no matter who he dates, and doesn’t he deserve to be known and understood the same way we’ve been granted for will and robin?

of course people shouldn’t look or speak down on others who have a different interpretation, no matter how obvious/inarguable you think yours is, but there’s nothing wrong with people discussing and presenting the evidence of their side. whether the show ends up confirming one or another or leaving it up to interpretation, it’s still never going to be a waste of time to talk about, or something that “doesn’t matter.”

it matters for mike. whether the show gives us that or not for him as a character, he as a person would still need to address that in his own life? and then, even if the answer ends up being “i’m not quite sure what my sexuality is” or “it’s fluid” or “i don’t want a label” that’s still going to be the result of mike’s internal analysis of his feelings.

so that’s still part of the very same debate about his sexuality--there is no being outside of it as long as you believe mike loves will, because you agree he is not straight, so your opinion that he'll stay unlabeled is just the 3rd possible option for the outcome of the story (confirmed gay, confirmed bi, neither being confirmed), and not actually staying neutral of the gay vs bi discourse you believe you’re above.

[emblazons]

forewarning: this is the longest "this is mike's arc and I'm tired of denying it" breakdown i've done in a min (it's def about gay mike bar none so. skip if you want)

I keep reading posts about "where Mike is with his feelings for Will" all across the dash now, and...while I get the idea of wanting a Mike as devastated by not hearing from Will as Will was because Mike's aware he has romantic feelings, *Arya Stark Voice* that's not him?

In the show, Mike Wheeler wears his heart on his sleeve. He is prone to emotionality and doesn't really track his feelings within himself the way Will does—is "less interior," for a lack of a better phrase, which both plays dramatically into how things are playing out with both El and Will and makes it (dare I say it) out of character to believe he's as "hurt by his own hope" as Will is when it comes to mutual feelings.

Let me see if I can explain.

First: I think it's important to keep in mind that, at least with Mike, you get someone who will subconsciously act on "inner truths" before he even realizes they're true about him—and someone who will behave according to whatever external reality deems "correct" until he realizes 1) its bullshit or 2) its not true for him personally. We see this season over season:

First with how he willfully breaks rank with authority (his parents, the police, even the community) first to find Will and then again breaks rank with even his friends to protect Eleven in season 1

Then in S2 when he throws "proper" behavior to the wind (which is even slightly acknowledged in Will's 'don't tell the others' / 'crazy together) to be there for + lowkey confess the depth of his feelings to Will (everyone say thank you shed scene)

Again (though slightly different) in S3, with how there's this bubbling thing being gay he doesn't realize has started to manifest itself—cue that comment the duffer's made forever ago about S3 being about "the monster of puberty," aka when people start to understand their own attractions—until the very end of the season with how he realizes he's not attracted to El

And finally in S4, when he consciouslly knows for a fact he's not into El and tries to hide it—quite poorly, because, as I said, he can only abide a "lie" when he doesn't realize it is one—but hasn't yet realized that the thing bubbling up inside him THIS season (that keeps slipping out without him realizing it) is his attraction to/romantic feelings for Will.

In Season 4 especially, its easy to track how this "I can lie...until I know it is one" affects Mike's romantic prospects; we see plainly that his lying about his feelings to El during the monologue was a failure because the power of Mike's whole character is rooted in the importance of him being true to himself and his heart. Season over season, we've seen that Mike has to be honest with people once he knows what he feels in order for his leadership to be effective—and by S4, he knows he doesn't love El romantically (+ has known for a HOT minute, aka since his little S3 post-kiss revelation)—which is why he tries to skirt around the issue with that "I care for you so much" rather than lie to El's face about his lack of romantic feelings.

Basically: once Mike consciously knows something is not right in either the world or inside himself, he has to act on it...or suffer the consequences of his lack of honesty. But then....what does that have to do with him not being the one "not trying to be in love" with Will?

Despite the fandom urge to deny it even in the wake of The Duffers and Finn Wolfhard themselves telling them it's true: Mike being oblivious to his own feelings, or at least consciously unaware, of his own romantic feelings for Will is a solid amount of what's driving his character's growth right now. Mike "friends don't lie" Wheeler has spent the entirety of this show trying to be as honest as possible with the people around him, and we've clearly seen as of S4 what happens when he isn't honest—the world (quite literally) falls apart.

When it comes to his romantic arc especially, it's important to remember this is true, because it means, through logical deduction, that Mike isn't hiding the fact that he has feelings for Will throughout season 4—he's hiding the fact that he's not in love with his girlfriend the way he's supposed to be, which both plays into the whole forced conforming through-line of the season and explains the crux of his narrative even as we are primarily shown that experience through Will's eyes—unreliable as they are. The thing leaking out of Mike without his knowledge is the fact that he likes boys—but the thing he's consciously hiding and lying about is the fact that he doesn't like girls the way he knows he's supposed to.

Now: does that mean he doesn't have a million subconscious responses to things regarding Will—one's rooted both in his attraction to men and his friendly/romantic/evolving feelings for him? Absolutely not. Half of what drives Mike's S4 narrative was built into his wordless/subconscious actions throughout S3, from the way we see him look disgusted with girls when they're mentioned, the way he take's El's hands off him when she tries to kiss him, and even the way he looks conflicted by her kiss at the very end of the season. Just because Mike is consciously unaware that something is happening to him doesn't mean the thing isn't happening—it just means that Mike himself is oblivious to it.

Even so: Mike being oblivious to the fact that he's attracted to men/in love with Will means he isn't consciously trying to keep himself away from Will—which is clear, if you pay attention to every moment before he gets guilted into remembering he has a GF by Argyle.

Basically, the crux of Mike's own experience with his problems is—

"I don't love El the way I'm supposed to, and it's going to cause problems if I can't do that for everyone I care for,"

not

"I am trying to hide my feelings for boys/Will and have to pretend they aren't there to be normal."

—which is a subtle but critical distinction in understanding both where he is by the end of S4 and where he's headed moving into S5.

Now: I get that it's more fun to imagine a Mike fighting his feelings for Will consciously throughout S4, but....that's Will's story and experience of his feelings, not Mike's. Mike is fighting with his lack of attraction to women more than his attraction to men/Will—which is also why you see it slip out so much despite the time/era/what he knows of what happens to gay men in Hawkins.

If Mike knew he loved Will/boys consciously, he'd be much more afraid of himself and Will than he is even as of the last shot of S4—but he's not, which is shockingly telling if you consider how he already knows what he doesn't feel for Eleven. Once he does know what he feels—his "a-ha" moment about liking Will, the same as his consciously realizing he didn't love El "like that" as of end of S3—it will be impossible for him not to address it in himself...and finally be honest/undo the damage of The Lie he told El (he loved her) during the monologue.

That's the (canonical) trajectory of Mike "The Heart" Wheeler—and why him being oblivious to his feelings for Will, not just "secretly longing without wanting to indulge hope he might have the boy he loves" the way Will is experiencing moving into S5. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[conflictofthemind]

I love the post that took the rounds again a week or two back discussing how much more "being gay" and internalized homophobia is a theme for Will than it is for Mike. It's things like this that make me such a neutral party on the "gay vs bi" debate.

I'll try to word it in a way that makes sense. My real opinion is that Mike's arc with sexuality is a lot more symbolic than it is material. That post does go into a lot of it. For Will, his sexuality is directly brought up by both friends and strangers, and he must ask questions like "will my family disown me for liking another boy" and other things that are basically only about being gay.

For Mike, his arc is wrapped in metaphor - understandably, since he is less visible and his feelings are meant to be a plot twist. But I think even as it's revealed, it will be written differently than Will.

Its like, "how do we explain sexuality in a way that is understandable to every viewer" (Mike) versus "how do we represent a specific experience to the queer community" (Will).

Saying this as a Will fan who also wishes people would understand Will better, I wish people (especially Mike fans who should know better) would understand the scope of Mike's character and how it informs what he does!!

He basically spent the entire last season whisper-screaming for help, but this has still flown everyone heads who still believes his biggest struggles are liking men and not liking El primarily because she is a girl, no deeper reasons here.

Mike's acceptance and/or realization of his sexuality is so wrapped up in other things that are crucial to his character. To the point you can't address one without having the whole house of his personal issues fall apart. It's an arc about personal acceptance - not specifically for liking boys, but for daring to step out of the suburban nuclear family dream, for not rushing to abandon his desires that seem 'childish' to others, knowing that his worth goes past what he can provide. Not feeling inadequate.

His relationship with El not just failing because he is (possibly / probably) unable to reciprocate her attraction but because they are deep down incompatible individuals, beyond sexuality. They don't have much in common. El's power brings out Mike's lack of. Mike is only able to connect with her in situations of danger, when his previously stated mental health crises are triggered, not everyday life.

Disclaimer of course that this is not a hard black and white line, and Will's struggles with his sexuality are also tied into his character flaws. But not in the same magnitude. I also think Mike will face the material reality of his feelings and being gay in the time period, but again, not to the same magnitude as Will's arc emphasizes.

[will80sbyers]

I feel like what Mike feels toward El is some sort of an admiration. He mixed up his feelings for being romantic because El was the first girl he actually talked to, her being a hero also made Mike be attracted to her. I also feel like this pretty much applies to El. Mike was the first person to show her genuine care for the first time. I think she confuses her feelings with romantic love too.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I think too, he had a crush on her when they were little but it's mostly based on idealizing her as a hero and this means he doesn't understand her truly, he likes that she's a hero and thinks she's great, but she doesn't really want to be seen as a hero because she can't be constantly good to the extent that a hero is required to be, because she's human and has so much trauma to deal with!!!

Basically Mike likes heroes and she was a cute girl that liked him back and they liked each other as kids but then growing up things changed, to have a serious relationship with someone you need more than what they have... and El is exactly in the same situation, she is not in love with Mike... She relied on him for a sense of safety and familiarity

they both are confused because they are just so little, it's normal!! They are still kids!

I think Mike was really convinced he could love her romantically too and he has this strong need to protect her how he can, and especially after Will's speech he convinced himself that he could make it work between them again, I don't think he lied about anything, he thinks all that but he doesn't know what true romantic love is and that what he's feeling isn't it

It's literally the Laurie - Jo situation from little women... Laurie did have love for Jo but the love he has for Amy is "different" because the love for her is mature love not puppy/childhood love

Mike has childhood love for El and he's scared of letting go of the relationship because they didn't exactly start from friendship before dating, so he's not sure if they can get there without them dating... Obviously he's wrong but he's still scared of losing her completely and that blocks him from understanding what would be better for both of them

And he's scared of El not needing him anymore also because he's scared that she will leave his life completely if she doesn't need him anymore... he does love her even if it's not romantic and they don't work in a relationship outside of the physical side of it, there is love there but they are just not compatible as people in a romantic way

For how I see things, the writers wouldn't have made them like that if it was only that he can't love her because he's not attracted to her, in my opinion that seems unnecessary, they showed us that they don't have that type of understanding that comes with being in a relationship that works emotionally for a reason

They lack the deep understanding of the other person and they don't feel safe to be open and communicate their fears without thinking that if they do the other person is gonna find them "not cool enough" to date etc and they are locked in the roles of "boyfriend & girlfriend" instead of being just Mike and El

Mike and El just have too many problems as a couple and I really think things have changed between season 3 and 4 and they don't even have the physical romantic chemistry anymore... because that was tied to the emotional connection, and they don't have the emotional connection needed as we understood from season 4 in particular!

And guess what... Mike has all of the things that will make their relationship work... with Will!

But you know, it must be just a coincidence... 😂

[butterflysonnets]

yes i'm rooting for m*leven breakup because byler is neat but mostly? i'm rooting for m*leven breakup for the sake of el and mike.

to me, their romance was always a puppy love born out of a combination of social pressures, naïve curiosity, and a lack of true understanding regarding intimacy and romantic love and what it really is. it was real in that they do truly, deeply care about each other and they are close friends, maybe even shared an attraction, but a maturing romance is so much more than that. they've grown up and out of being boyfriend/girlfriend, and that's okay! i think television/film needs to show more often that most of us don't have definite "soulmates" or first childhood loves that we spend our whole lives with. it doesn't mean these relationships meant nothing and didn't impact us, it just means they've run their course and that something else is in the cards, and this is part of life!

i've always felt el was at her best and most confident self when broken up with mike, discovering who she was and what she liked alongside another girl her age instead of just relying on mike for mentorship on how to live in the real world. she deserves more of an opportunity to find herself, her autonomy, and her independence, and to love who she is, and she's made it clear she's felt insecure in the relationship with mike because she isn't being loved and understood the way she wants, needs, and deserves from someone who is her partner.

also, it's okay if mike doesn't love her in "the way he should". he is not obligated to love her romantically and stay in a relationship with her just because she's a girl, because she "needed someone", or because he cares about her a lot. he shouldn't be pressured into a romance if it's not truly coming from his heart. he deserves freedom to find out and honour who he is, too, instead of just staying in his non-functional first relationship — one he got into as a child, essentially — and defining himself that way because it's what's expected when a boy and a girl are close. he loves her in some way, yes, but it's okay if he doesn't feel comfortable or secure being her boyfriend anymore, for whatever reason that is. he's felt insecure too, and that's valid and it matters.

they are their own people and are steadily growing and changing every day. they need time to figure out who those people are, and it's become clear (at least in my opinion) that those people aren't meant to be a couple at this stage.

they deserve freedom. they deserve to grow up and be authentic to themselves and not feel like they need to lie for the sake of a relationship. they deserve to move on from this version of their relationship that isn't making them happy and rekindle the best part of their bond: their strong, beautiful friendship. they don't have to be a couple if it doesn't make them stronger and better and happier people.

i think it would be healthy and wonderful for a show, especially one consumed frequently by young adults, to show a relationship starting, progressing, and ending on good terms in this way. sometimes things don't work out, and that is okay.

[lit3rally-m1ke-whlr]

guys I accidentally deleted the essay I wrote in my drafts bc I’m an idiot (I’m crying) so I’m just gonna summarize in less words bc whatever I’m not typing several more paragraphs on this. Anyway I just had to say that I feel like there’s an ableism problem in the Stranger Things fandom. Either that or this fandom just doesn’t like when characters show obvious neurodivergent traits. We see this with El being either infantilized or deemed annoying by fans when she’s clearly developmentally impaired and autistic because she struggles with understanding social cues and just wants to be normal and fit in like everyone else. She was raised in a lab, obviously she’s going to be immature and not have a strong handle on her emotional responses to things, and you don’t have to like her but it kinda sucks that she’s being hated for these things when I can relate to her so much. We also see this with Mike, and I feel like the people calling him the worst character are forgetting he’s literally just a teenage boy dealing with trauma. Like it’s as if they were never a teenager before because trust me I was just like Mike at that age if not worse. I’ll admit I used to hate him too but maturing is realizing the reasons people dislike Mike can easily be explained by either internalized homophobia or neurodivergence. He’s a bad friend? It’s because he’s trying so hard to appear straight and struggles to balance his relationships in a healthy manner, and he often speaks before thinking about how what he’s saying comes across to others, which is something many autistics/ people with ADHD do, not because we mean to hurt others but we can often be blunt or brutally honest and come across as rude (or even just lash out when we feel attacked or hurt as a way to defend ourselves but it often comes out harsher than we want it to) in my experience. He’s a bad boyfriend? He’s actually not and even then it’s because he’s gay and not in love with El but just doesn’t want to lose her. Besides he doesn’t have a great model for what a loving relationship looks like because of his parents so he may not be able to differentiate between romantic and platonic love and stays in a relationship that he’s clearly not happy in because of societal pressure to appear straight and it would be suspicious (in his mind) if they broke up because a) El literally is the coolest girl on the planet, how could he not love her and b) he loses his cover and people might start to notice and question his lack of attraction to girls. But not only that, he clearly struggles with describing and expressing his emotions or recognizing those of others (aka alexythemia) which is common in autistic people. So if he didn’t notice El’s obvious discomfort at the skating rink that’s probably why, and it’s also why he couldn’t tell her he loved her (bc it was a lie but I digress).

But perhaps the best example and the reason I decided to make this rant post is Robin’s character in s4. I remember seeing so many people saying that once the writers decided to make her lesbian they realized they didn’t know what to do with her character, some even going as far as to say they made her ditzy and stripped her of her coolness, which basically proves my point about y’all (as in the fandom in general) not liking ND people because god forbid we unmask around you, it’s no wonder so many of us feel afraid to be our true selves in front of other people. It’s almost as if she was hiding behind a persona to seem more normal and not draw unwanted attention to herself because she’s a lesbian, and once she came out to Steve and was accepted she… didn’t have to do that anymore? She felt more comfortable and safe around him to show her true personality? I don’t know but there’s something off about the way people are acting like she’s suddenly dumb or just there for comedic effect in s4 when she’s literally been so useful like she’s the one who realized music could save victims from being possessed by vecna. She’s literally the same except now she’s out to someone and she gets nervous when it comes to girls she likes, big fucking deal. Not only is this mischaracterization ludicrous and flat out wrong but it’s quite upsetting to see as someone who can relate to Robin in season 4 and is also autistic. Yes, not everyone with autism is like that but some are and to say she’s no longer cool because of it just enforces the perception of autistics as weird and unlikeable just for simply being themselves and makes us feel like we can only be liked or taken seriously if we keep the mask on.

look at me I said I would keep it brief this time but I still ended up writing an entire wall of text on this anyway lol thanks for coming to my Ted talk ig

[despapillon]

When it comes to awareness, I do think that the s3 finale Melvin kiss led to Mike’s realization. I think throughout all of s4 he was aware of his lack of attraction towards El and during the monologue he wasn’t confused about his feelings for her and just simply lied aware of it all. Mike is sort of stuck, he is scared of losing El and probably many other things, so he stays with her and tries to be a good boyfriend while trying to not lie to her too much. But it’s clear he is doing the bare minimum and wants out deep down.

To me I just think they are focusing each season on him figuring out more and more and not just doing repeats or whatever.

S1 - Mike spends time with El away from Will and the relationship develops

S2 - Mike spends time with Will away from El and the relationship develops

S3 - Mike is with El and at the end has his realization he doesn’t like her the way he should

His behavior doesn’t point to him being unaware and that carrying over into S5 I mean come on.

It’s only fitting to me S4 is Mike, struggling with his knowledge, and that it is a repeat of S3 but with Willel swapped, where he has a realization regarding Will this time. And yeah I don’t view Mike as totally clueless about his feelings for Will, just in denial and repression

In my opinion just like El saying ily and kissing him led him to find out he doesn’t love her, I feel the van scene did that in regards to Will. I yet have no idea exactly what, but I know he realized *something* important there, and I suspect that is that he loves Will. I’m not saying he immediately was sure of it that instant but he probably wasn’t purely admiring the painting when Will turned around, just looking at it and trying to sort out how all things Will said made him feel. Mike didn’t notice Will crying right next to him because he was busy thinking, his head was too full. He glances at Will at one point but that doesn’t change the fact he must be zoned out. I’m still unsure if Mike clocked something was off with Will or he was too focused on his gay panic. Literally Vecna’s thoughts are easier for me to figure out than S3-4 Mike’s. Give us his POV ffs.

S5 is going to be Mike now knowing all the basics, the culmination, and having to deal with that, deal with his lie, Will’s lie. He has to choose either live a lie or be honest with himself and be with the person he loves. Mike needs to know he is not just a random nerd, he’s more than that. Will needs to know he has to stop being so self-sacrificing because it has the capacity to hurt not only himself but the very people he wants to help by sacrificing himself and that he needs to do something for himself for once, quit being a doormat as rude as that sounds.

[aemiron-main]

funny as fuck that people talk about mike denying the sibling allegations during the milkvan kiss and conveniently leave out the part where he admits that it wouldn’t be any different/that she would technically be like his sister. this is what I mean when I say some ppl just straight up ignore the text of the show when trying to prove mike’s supposed attraction to girls. people say that he “denied the sister comment” and use that as proof of it being romantic and then conveniently ignore the part where RIGHT AFTER THAT, he admitted it wouldn’t actually be any different.

plus the whole point abt it being tied to him being gay/indicating it a platonic bond is that REGARDLESS of Mike’s reaction, the WRITERS are still trying to indicate to the audience that it’s platonic/a familial parallel. and of course it SEEMS “romantic” with a kiss, I already talked about this & how they’re framing it that way on the surface so that they can pull the straightbait but the reality is once you look past the surface, it’s not romantic.

[thefirstlioveyou]

thinking about the stalker shots surrounding mike again. the fact he’s being watched and has been for the entire series tells me his visions if he does get vecna’d are gonna be absolutely horrible. vecna’s gonna know EXACTLY how to get under mike’s skin and torture him. he knows him well enough at this point

he knows mike is prone to outbursts and deflecting when he feels either a) things are out of his control, or b) his identity is being attacked. when will calls mike out on his obsession with el, he immediately resorts to targetting will’s sexuality. when el questions mike’s attraction to her, he shifts blame on to her bullies. when will - someone whose known mike his whole life - only wants to know why mike won’t contact him more compared to someone he only has known for barely 2 years, mike takes it as romantic instead and tells him they’re just friends.

this flaw mike has is what vecna needs to target if he wants to fully get control over mike and torture him. he needs to call out mike on his bullshit, where mike would then respond with his usual swearing and lack of accountability. however, obviously, this isn’t just a human arguing with mike - this is a horrific being that can put him through the worst scenarios in a matter of seconds with visions, and choose to kill him. with the help of visions and auditory hallucinations, mike will break. eventually, he just has to. he won’t have anything to fight back with. similar to how he breaks with hopper, he will break into tears of regret and - obviously - fear.

mike can only avoid and run away from what’s really true for so long. vecna knows the thing that mike’s too afraid to say, let alone accept -

mike can fight back as hard as he wants, he can yell, he can swear, he can punch and kick, he can run away - it wouldn’t matter. vecna is only going to fuel this behavior because it tears mike himself apart more than anybody else, more than vecna does. he is setting mike up against himself, essentially. that’s the funny part. all vecna has to do is stand there and let mike fight with himself and his own choices. it’s like those videos of those puppies that bark at their own barks, thinking it’s somebody else lol

this means the only way mike will be able to escape is acceptance of the mistakes he’s made, what makes him who he is, and his sexuality. i look forward to that

[chirpsythismorning]

Skam show-runner Julie Andem clocking the fuck out of Mike being queer-coded in s1 of Stranger Things, and then using it as inspiration to queer-code Isak in s3 of Skam can be something so epic.

THIS! THIS is what I'm talking about!

In ST, there are two scenes in s1 (pretty/still pretty) that milkvans use as irrefutable proof that Mike has always had romantic feelings for El, with the primary object in the scene being a mirror.

THIS. MEANS. SOMETHING.

Mirrors in film mean something more often than not, but especially when they are the focus of a scene is when they definitely mean something. And the way they go about it differently in between those two scenes in ST, drastically differently, and considering the subject matter is very very queer coded, is how you really know there is a significance in this case.

And that scene above from Skam proves it.

Because apparently, another filmmaker watched ST, picked up on those odd details surrounding Mike and said shit I'm gonna use that...

Notice how Isak here, a gay teenager who is fully in denial with others and himself, to the point where he makes really homophobic remarks often, gets caught denying a bunch of girls as being attractive in a conversation with his friends. And so now they're questioning him and making him feel on edge bc the focus is on him and his attraction (lack thereof) to girls.

While his friends aren't even implying he is gay in this moment, it's just them genuinely being confused why he doesn't think any of the girls they think are attractive are attractive, you can still see that Isak starts to feel the pressure and so he latches onto the first girl he thinks of, Emma.

Emma just so happens to look like Natalie Portman with her extremely short hair.

Low and behold this very girl enters the room shortly after he says this and so now Isak has to face this and give his friends the impression he is fully interested in this girl, otherwise they would DEFINITELY suspect something is off. And so he goes all out.

He outs himself.

He literally says Don't you look like that boy from Stranger Things, and then follows it up with saying he would only be attracted to her if we're assuming he is attracted to boys, only to quickly backtrack and start to approach her really flirtatiously, then going all out by making out with her.

As this happens, he is kissing her in the bathroom, in front of a mirror...

Now I want to make clear, I am not saying ST was inspired by Skam. I'm pretty sure I did make that clear, it's actually the other way around, which is even more incriminating arguably.

S1 of Stranger Things came out in 2016, whereas s3 of Skam came out the following year in 2017. The hype for ST was so immense, to the point where you had Norwegian teens referencing it in everyday conversation.

The creator of Skam took scenes from ST that framed Mike very peculiarly in s1, and used it as queer-coding for a character that ended up being revealed as gay.

For those that haven't seen Skam Norway... Run. Leap. Drive. Teleport. Do what you have to do and go watch it. It's not available on any streaming, in fact it's only available online through fan-sites outside of where it's based. Conveniently, all 4 seasons with English subs can be found HERE.

Basically this show is amazing and you need to watch it. Some seasons I like more than others. But the gist of it is that every season focuses on a different character from the main group, where they experience some sort of misunderstanding/miscommunication that leads to them being misinformed about certain things, followed by them making mistakes and having doubts, though it tends to end in a way that feels so refreshing compared to what we're used to.

Skam also translates in english to shame, so the idea is that there is an arc surrounding some form of shame every season.

With Isak in particular, he's the focus for s3, though his arc starts to become more clear as early as the end of s1.

Eva, the character in focus for s1, borrows Isak’s phone to call someone, and ends up seeing that there's gay porn in a bunch of his tabs on his browser. Their friend Noora also witnesses this and she ends up being the focus of s2.

Throughout s2, we get even more blatant hints that Isak is gay and in love with his best friend...

So it's established pretty early on throughout the series that Isak is queer and in denial about it, but it isn't until s3 that he himself is able to confront it.

The way they go about this arc, with Isak having unrequited feelings, is exactly how ST would have done it IF Mike hadn't returned Will's feelings.

So if you're looking for more byler proof, go watch this show and see how they don't let Isak pine over his best friend Jonas for more than 2 seasons.

When the story finally puts Isak at the forefront, they give him his own love interest instead of keeping him pining for his friend. It's really pure and amazing and TBH I would have been fine if ST was framed this way, with it being clear from the beginning Isak's feelings were unrequited, and with the other half of the series focusing on him moving on and finding love himself, and also with his best friend and him still being very close.

Although Isak has that queer-coding from the very beginning, with him looking at his friend all fondly, he is still not able to confront any of it. The following season he dates a girl and is a little over the top about it, though we can also see that he is struggling despite not wanting to face it. It isn't until s3 when the story shows us his inner struggle at the forefront, that we see him finally confront it and accept it.

For those that don't know, Skam also loosely inspired the Nick Nelson gay test scene... So we have character that despite showing many signs of being queer, to the point where we know he literally watched gay porn, is still finding himself in a situation where he's taking gay tests 2 years later....

While he might have the knowledge deep down, he was not willing to face it. In fact he was doing everything he could to avoid confronting it.

But then he falls in love and suddenly it's not something he can ignore anymore...

[spicybylerpolls]

All of the teenage relationships are sexualised from the get-go. Stancy's introduction was all about the trope where bad boy Steve just wants to try getting good girl Nancy into bed. Jancy is also immediately sexualised when Jonathan takes the spicy photos of Nancy. And Steve and Robin make booby jokes before Vickie is even introduced. Meanwhile for Stobin, we only really got Steve thinking that he and Robin would be a cute couple but no sexual innuendos whatsoever, hinting that the relationship will not happen because there is no sexual attraction there.

It is initially a bit different for Mileven/Lumax/Byler because they are actually kids at the start of the show. But Season 3 makes such a big fuss about them not being kids anymore and it is coincidentally also the time some of the characters start to make innuendos themselves. Which also means that who they liked as kids is not necessarily who they are eventually attracted to as teenagers.

In comparison to the other teenage relationships, Mileven seems to be a relationship free of any sexual implications. In Season 3 Hopper wants the door certainly not open because he is afraid of them kissing - however, Mike and El never overtly express a desire for sex, neither with each other nor for other people. Milevens like to say "Oh, this means that Mike and El only have eyes for each other" although the sexual implications are completely absent from their relationship.

Of course you could argue that the characters may be demi/ace, but I think especially in Mike's case it is made clear that he is not acespec but a repressed queer (with the Season 4 Episode 1 montage as biggest proof). Some people also insisted (and still insist) that Will is ace too because they are subconsciously so afraid to see any sort of queer attraction on screen. (As a person on the acespec myself, I really long for the day where asexuality is finally done justice on screen. But Stranger Things is clearly a show where they actively contrast lack of sexual attraction and actual sexual attraction with each other. Unfortunately, 99% of media does not include intentionally-accurate representation of asexuality, so right now Stranger Things is not under the obligation to be the show that is suddenly an exception)

This is all so true! People try to argue that Mike and El "making out all the time" is evidence that they have interest in sexual exploration, but A) the show very clearly draws our attention to the fact that he takes his hands off her when they're making out, B) Mike doesn't express sexual interest in the Phoebe Cates, the hot girl of the day, like his friends, C) the show draws our attention to how unnatural it is by having Hopper comment on it, and D) this doesn't progress or increase in any way. In fact, it decreases. In S4, they have one fairly awkward kiss and never show any signs of desire for each other. Instead, the emphasis is on Mike not being able to say ILY to her.

For a ship that's allegedly the main ship, this is all pretty unusual. When was the last time you saw a ship with teenage characters who "only have eyes for each other" yet never show even the slightest sign that they want to explore the physical side of things, even if only 2nd base? It's like Mike got to 1st base and immediately wanted to abort mission and backtrack and never do anything straight again.

Some Milkvans will say it's because Mike is a gentleman, but... come on. Lucas is a gentleman with Max, and the show goes out of its way to emphasize his sexual desire multiple times. Dustin and his girlfriend aren't even in the same state, and she's a devout Mormon, and still there's no doubt that Dustin would round all the bases multiple times in a heartbeat if he got the chance.

Meanwhile, everything between Mike and El looks like a weird, unnatural performance. And they don't even kiss in the desert!

Especially considering the fact that Mike and Will, who are allegedly just platonic friends, do show signs of physical desire. This is what they're like JUST touching arms ever so slightly. Get a room.

[castlebyersafterdark]

Your post about will wanting mike physically made me wonder if many of the puritan bylers used to be milevens (statistics would suggest yes) who are still struggling to come to terms with what it means for a man to be gay. 

There seems to be a lack of understanding about how boys actually relate to each other in both platonic and romantic contexts. After all, lots of gay media that caters to young teen girls, like heartstopper, is cutesy if not totally sanitised, and if they are basing what byler could be off of what they thought mileven WAS, then it tracks - because mileven was never physical or sexual either. The reasons for this are all to do with mike’s sexuality, but perhaps many people think that mileven WAS real and no longer is, and therefore when mike and will get together it’ll just be another version of that heterosexual romance. 

Ofc this is wrong, not least because mike and el were so young when they were exploring each other even if it was entirely performed rather than genuinely exploratory. but even if mike was exploring a relationship with el for the first time as a 16/17 yr old, it would still manifest differently to one with will because they are both boys. Not to say that love itself or the butterflies you feel are different, but the way that two men will express their love + the fact that mike and will are friends, would obviously change their dynamic. 

Do you think that if mike and el had been shown to check each other out, that people would have a different opinion (not about mike being gay or bi, but about how his and will’s attraction will express itself?) Because you’re right - people do forget that will being gay means he wants to be intimate with men. Is that because they think his attraction is never physically expressed in the show? But then what exactly would that physical attraction look like? Has he not been ogling mike enough for you? Or painting his body in a very intricate ritual of dedication and love? Or is it because Will is just so gosh darn adorable, and they think that someone who has a baby face cannot experience sexual attraction? 

Intriguing premise on multiple fronts!

Re: the former Milevnn scenario - never considered that but at least for some folks in fandom? Maybe! That's an interesting idea, but I do kind of lean towards a lot of the 'puritan' ideas just being a product of today's internet/fandom culture, via this agenda from how gen z seems to have grown up entirely online. And you can't fully blame it on this generation! Those under that mindset didn't inflict it on themselves! (Same vein as "no one is born racist - you are taught to hate"). It's a reaction to a deeper conversation of social media and surveillance culture and this pervasive mindset of thought-crime, etc. I'm toeing the line between genZ/millennial but my fandom experience in the early years was a bit different, where there wasn't as strong of a backlash and negative reaction to sexuality and sex in regards to fandom (people were writing fic about high school age characters doing alllll sorts of stuff and, thinking back, getting a call-out about that content kinda seems unfathomable in retrospect). I genuinely feel it's mostly a culture clash in fandom spaces. But with kindness and re-education and conversation, I think we can either come to agreements and find common ground rather than fighting and call-outs and witch-hunts and all that negativity. I find it more helpful to ask the puritan-mind set folks "why do you feel this way? what about this is so upsetting to you? Have you never really examined your judgement and why it makes you upset?" Learning moments! Kindness and compassion goes a long way in fighting repression and bigotry, and I know that's a hard pill to swallow sometimes in the face of contentiousness.

Re: not understanding the teenage boy experience - another verrrrrrry big factor that I also think simultaneously plays into what's going on, even with those well-intentioned and supportive, just hesitant. It's just the honest truth. Without getting too far into gender politics et. al - yeah, unless you yourself are or were a teenage boy, especially a gay teenage boy - there's a lot of presumption and inference and while mileage does very much vary in personal experience, there are tenets that will factor into an accurate portrayal. Yes - not every teenager is going to have sex. Not every teenager is even interested in sex and many will grow into adults who aren't interested either and that's totally valid and fine. But I do not think that is the case for these specific characters, personally. It's a disservice to sanitize queer sexuality. To put it bluntly, if two teenage boys are dating/have feelings for each other - they're going to want to have sex. Are you kidding me? Teenagerdom? The horniest time of our lives??? Yall. It's going to be awkward and fumbling and exploratory and they won't fully know what they're doing, but these boys will want to experiment and get it on. That's nature, that's biology. It honestly cracks me up when I read some sfw byler fics with heavy make-out scenes and the next moment it's like 'oh we better stop before we get carried away' and I'm like, oh honey. That's not how dicks work. They're already hard and they both know it. They're sixteen. You get hard at a strong breeze sometimes. The love of your young little life has his hands up your shirt and his tongue in your mouth? Boner central. Sorry!!!

Re: a different portrayal of Mike and El - interesting as well. There are so many factors here to consider. Showing Mike and El in more 'intimate' scenarios I don't think really would have that big of a factor in regards to the anti-sex brigade in general. A big portion of the same people who spout off about 'they're minors! we don't need to see sex in media!' would say it whether it's mike and el or mike and will... but there's def a layer of homophobia inherent with mike and will in conjunction with that mindset, even by people who claim to like and support gay ships. The Will dilemma tho. I've been puzzling over the Will dilemma since I stepped into the Byler fandom. And why he, despite being literally "the gay character" - his sexuality is less explored in regard to the most baseline aspects of being gay. Is it infantilizing because he's our cute sweet little victim? Is it because he has yet to actually pursue his love interest in the narrative? I'm still working on pondering this myself!! Because it isn't at all how I viewed his situation or character. But, very interesting points...

[bit-of-a-nerd]

What Mike’s Room Means About Byler

we’ve all talked and hear about mike’s rooms queercoding. people talk a lot about the posters, which have two things: fantasy and men. men is obvious queercoding when you look at other characters rooms. the lack of women is interesting when making the case that hes gay not bi. but theres something that people dont talk a lot about

mike and el have a very strong sci-fi coding. that makes sense, its a sci-fi show, and their biggest season together was the season based as an homage to classic 80’s sci-fi films. creators have made comparisons to et, her powers in s1 had a strong “alien” vibe from sci-fi, and imagery with things like star wars. 

however, byler has a strong fantasy coding. their first scene (both at all, but also their first one on one scene) had to do with dnd (fantasy game). this coding does go away for a bit in s2 when dnd takes a bit of a backseat (except for dustin coining the name of the mind flayer). but its back again in full force for s3. their major s3 fight (with TONS of queer mike coding and byler coding in general) was after the failed dnd game. will’s dnd game had some of the most pure fantasty vibes that we’ve seen of st dnd games.  the music he used, the costuming, the village all screamed medieval fantasy. 

not to mention dnd used to point towards mikes conformity. him leaving it in s3 is a sign of conformity, but him returning shows him starting to embrace himself. his costuming at rink o mania show’s thats not fully the case, pointing towards something else being the root of the conformity. then one of the (if not the) biggest byler scene, and the crux of what will be a major byler focused plot point, is will’s painting and the van scene. the painting? A FANTASY DND FIGHT! there’s a reason people love cleradin au’s and love the ship names cleradin and wiseheart. because dnd, and by extent fantasy, are woven into byler.

so keeping all that in mind, lets talk about rooms. rooms are usually a place for self expression. posters and things that express who you are and your interests. we've seen the duffers use rooms to express this in the past. but, they’ve also used rooms to show attraction. we dont see the second point much in mikes season 1 room, but we see the first. his room is a reflection of his nerdy interests and his friends mainly (also closet imagery!!!). but now that hes growing into a teenager it makes sense that we would begin to see the second part when we finally get his room again in s4. 

so: interests, we see his fantasy posters and his guitar. his fantasy posters line back up with his participation in hellfire. not TONS there, but some signals to him adopting eddies style due to some facsination/hero worship/crush(???) of the guy (an example being the guitar).

but attraction is where his room gets REALLY interesting. he has MULTIPLE posters of shirtless men. his one way sign to the closet. does more need to be said? it does. because attraction to men and being closeted, doesn’t mean much for being in relationships. (again bi people do exist!! he could be closeted and still in love with his gf)

In this scene he’s reading a letter from his girlfriend, in their ‘perfect’ relationship, their sci-fi coded relationship. so, even with the attraction to men coded, maybe the duffers didnt see the need to recode his female attraction, they just added coding of his relationship into his room, right? he might just not be the guy to have a shrine to his partner, he might just be more subtle?

except all the posters are more fantasy leaning. which is a different genre from scifi. his room does not point towards his relationship with el. but we fantasy is the coding behind his and will’s relationship. the same relationship that in their time apart he’s somehow managed to start acting weirder around his best friend, and feel the need to assert that they. are. just. friends. the same friend who just got confirmed in love with mike, and is now a love interest. 

I know theres been a lot of talk about mikes room but people haven’t really talked about the fantasy aspect, or bylers fantasy coding and mlvns sci-fi coding. I think it’s a lot more important than people are giving it credit for. 

[gayofthefae]

Thinking about Mike and Will's queerness and how they've both said things that are either 80s-misogynistic or in retrospect, queercoded (doesn't erase the misogyny, I'm not saying that).

In seasons 2 and 3, Will says girls can't skate or like science/acts confused at the notion. In retrospect, they had him make anti-girl comments based on a lack of interest in girls SPECIFICALLY in contexts where he was responding to his friends' attraction to them: first when Dustin and Lucas were watching Max, then when Dustin was talking about Suzie.

In season 3, Mike says that girls operate on "emotion not logic". Lucas reaffirms this, but he's the first one to say it. In retrospect (and even outside of queerness, this was my interpretation on a first watch), we can deduce that Mike says this because HE was strategically and logically TRYING to seem straight in his relationship with El, afraid of acting on emotion because he wasn't secure enough in that fact that his "true self" WAS straight, so he didn't trust his instincts to "seem straight" - thus, him mirroring Lucas and repeatedly being confused in his attempts to do so, aside from this conversation in which he confidently says that he is operating in their relationship based on logic and not emotion.